[IMG:L]At New York’s London Hotel, in between sips of prosecco and Gordon Ramsay-created tasting plates, I find myself laughing…a lot; and relieved to remember that my L.A.-transplant friend–whom I recently interviewed for Hollywood.com for her sobering movie–remains funny, quirky and impassioned … I was hanging with my film-school buddy Kim Peirce, who, back in March, opened-up a window to me with her film Stop-Loss.
First, there’s Kim Peirce: a dude-ish, angular/model-faced, self-identified “metrosexual” director–whose stylish charm, humor and enthusiasm fills the space arround her.
Then there’s her debut feature, Boys Don’t Cry: astonishing, eerie, and exploring–deeply–themes of masculinity. It earned Hilary Swank an Oscar, and is based on the real-life brutal murder of a transgendered Nebraskan teen.
‘Stop-Loss’ Director Kim Peirce
Now there’s Stop-Loss: arresting, enlightening, and digging sharply into global, political and emotional themes of masculinity. It’s based on a practice that
allows the president during wartime to send back soldiers (to the frontlines) who have already completed their tour; over 100,000 troops have lived this reality.
From Boys to Stop-Loss, it’s quite clear, Kim‘s vibrant body of work–regardless of genre–reveals a fresh exploration into curiosity surrounding the masculine world–one that tries to make coherency of human nature and that which is incomprehensible, unforgivable or darkly funny.
So it’s no surprise, during our dinner hang, post our “official” interview, she pitches me her latest project on the hush–and it’s nothing short of raucous! Moving into romantic comedy is a logical transition for such a spirited storyteller; she’s on to something that will definitely be the buzz.
In the vein of Animal House, and comedy masters Woody Allen and Judd Apatow, Kim‘s off-the-hook script, with a gender-twist thrown in, already has growing interest. But I’m sure we’ll be reporting on that later.
For now, take an intimate journey behind-the-scenes with Kim and the making of Stop-Loss–just out on DVD–that’s still inspiring a movement. We’re not the only ones encouraging you to see it, you’ll see…read on!: [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: While Stop-Loss has pivotal female leads, can you talk about being surrounded by so much male energy and action on-set?
Kim Peirce: What was interesting, was two things: the boys let me into the boys’ club–like they talked about women, they talked about sex, they were raunchy. I let them be boys and they let me witness them be boys. What they’ll tell you is that a lot of times they change their behavior around women. So, what was really important was that I got to be around them and they didn’t change their behavior–and I really got to observe the bonds of masculinity and how they really are without judgment. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: They’re all quite layered young men, so how did you conceive of your male leads and which “types” you’d focus on?
Kim Peirce: Yeah, that’s a good question. I was kinda seeing three types of guys: There was one guy like Sergeant Steve Shriver (Channing Tatum) who because they adrenalized him and he killed people–found out the fact that he was kind of like a warrior; this was a guy who would’ve been a warrior at any time in history–it answered something for him and it forever changed him…he didn’t find his old life exciting–in the same way. He needed to go back [to the frontlines], he functioned better that way. Then there was a guy like Ryan [Phillippe, playing Brandon] who was sort of like his twin…the fact that his men were being maimed and killed and that it was too much for him to handle. That made it no longer worth it for him [Ryan] and he wanted to put it behind him and move on. The Joe [Gordon-Levitt, Tommy] character was based on a number of real stories–heartbreaking–of soldiers who like Steve had been forever changed by the war, and like Ryan who wanted to come home and put it behind them, but through a series of situations and details that happened, they weren’t able to occupy either space. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Your films Boys Don’t Cry and now Stop-Loss have strong threads that link the two–for me, they both chart key questions that revolve around masculinity and role-play in profound ways. Do you see these themes?
Kim Peirce: Masculinity is a huge interest for me, obviously given my personal life, and certainly looking at Brandon Teena (Boys Don’t Cry) and how someone would construct themselves if that was the only way of them getting love and acceptance and it was so fun to be able to really dive into these macho guys and how they relate. In this case, I find it so funny that we have so many metrosexual men in the media right now and the notion of when you go to test a movie that a lot of the representation of men are more boyish than they are super macho… [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: My gawwd, yeah–cause the macho-ness really jumps out at you from this film!
Kimberly Peirce: Yeah, and I was looking back at war movies and movie stars and I looked at all the stars from Boys Don’t Cry [to base my model] but I had a girl–and here I was looking to cast and there were a lot of boys that were available but there weren’t a lot of men….there wasn’t a masculinity around. I had soldiers sitting in on the casting sessions saying whether or not they’d go to war with these guys and if they thought they were “real” men. So, all these soldiers sign up to protect their family, their home and their country. Like, that’s just the stated. Every soldier I talked to said, “When I got over there, it wasn’t about that. It was about protecting the soldier to my left and the soldier to might right. It was about camaraderie. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: This story is told seamlessly, in many ways, through a soldier’s p.o.v. There are different styles melded together, yet it’s not ostentatious. Can you talk about capturing this story through the soldiers’ eye?
Kim Peirce: The soldier’s point of view was where I started. I was in New York on 9/11 and I saw the towers fell. I don’t know if you went but I went to those vigils in Union Square.
HW: Mmm. Yup. I was there.
KP: New York was in a state of mourning. The rest of the country was in a very different state of being. America had declared war. I knew pretty much at that point I needed to do something about the war and soldiers–and that they were going to be the most changed. Not long after, my little brother was going to go fight and so that was devastating and a huge revelation for the family. He and other soldiers started sending me these soldier-made videos which were amazing because they would take the little cameras and put them in their HUM-Vs…or…on the gun turret while they were fighting or just throw them on the ground during a fire fight. The camera would just ‘pick up’ whatever it recorded, and then they’d go back to their barracks and would cut it together, like, on iMovie and they’d put it to [music] like Toby Keith “I’m An American Soldier”…or AC/DC. So, by the time I got it, it was just this amazing look at a soldier’s experience–the way nobody had ever, ever seen it. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: From Boys to Stop-Loss, you show a great instinct for teaming with actors who may not be the “obvious” choice–or as ‘out there’ as other hot-listers–yet they possess such a wealth of talent. What do you think you’re tapping into?
Kimberly Peirce: I love the idea that I actually get to cast my movies–meaning to work with [producer] Scott Rudin who is very smart about casting and Avy Kaufman who is one of the best casting directors; but in most Hollywood pictures over a certain budget you’re not really casting in the traditional sense. There’s a list of people who “mean something” at the box office … and they [the studio] will only make it with that group of people–and that has to do with a certain track record. Whether that means that they [the A-listers] bring the box office or not, we won’t actually know, but that’s the perception and they don’t audition. It’s kind of like, “I’ve been in movies. You’ve seen me in movies. Put me in your movie.” But, I’ve been really lucky in both projects.[PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Kim, your actors fit so snuggly into their roles, can you shed light on what can go wrong in the casting process when films don’t feel authentic?
Kimberly Peirce: I think what happens is that egos get too big and people don’t want to be vulnerable and it ends up impeding everything. So, I am really lucky that actors will audition for me, and I have a real blast in the audition room. I have a sense when looking at them, what they are capable of–but it’s by working with them in an audition setting that I really get to direct them and I find out what their life need is and if it matches up with the actor. If the actor and the character have the same life need, then we are generally in good shape because I can then carry that into the movie. You can begin to factor in, “If they can do this … then I can begin to direct them to do ‘that’ [which] that they haven’t done.” You know there are certain inherent things…[PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Truly, the actors bring that certain “thing” to their roles–a piece of themselves.
Kimberly Peirce: I could not “direct” Channing to be charismatic and a hunk–right? [Laughs]
HW: [Laughs] Right!? Helloooo!!
KP:That guy is built. I mean, he’s that guy. That is the guy who’s going to run into the building and be Mr. Macho. There’s just a certain amount of what he had that is Steve [his character]. I talked to him about the Brandon character, and instead he [Channing] was just like [channeling a deep boy voice], “I love being Steve. I love being Steve. I’m Steve!” … I was like: “[Then] You’re Steve!” [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Did that similarly happen with Ryan Phillippe, and what he brought to his complex character, Brandon?
Kimberly Peirce: There’s something with Ryan that…Ryan in the movie is the father [figure] of the men…at a certain point, with actors under a certain age it’s going to be hard for them [to be fatherly]; because we tried in auditions, if they weren’t of a certain age…baring…and maturity, then they couldn’t play the father to the men. You couldn’t believe that they [the other would-be actors] were leading these guys in and through battle–and that they were broken hearted when they [their soldiers] were maimed or killed and they were going to have this crisis of consciousness. Well, Ryan has two kids, Ryan is a great father–those really are things that you feel, and you buy it when he cares. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: So the true essence of an actor is key to the role?
Kimberly Peirce: It’s like what was I looking for with Channing. Did I need the deep sensitivity? Well certainly I needed him to be sensitive, but the more dominant thing I needed was the ‘charismatic hunk’ that was going to be the ‘charismatic psychopath’ who you were going to love. That was inherent to his being, I wasn’t going to create that, I was going accentuate that. For Ryan…if I didn’t have him being the father to the men the character would’ve never worked because the entire movie is to protect his men. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: …How about with the Michele character, who is deeply connected to both Steve and Brandon?
Kimberly Peirce: Same thing with Abbie (Cornish), I needed a girl who was one of the guys, who could drink them under the table, who knew how to load a gun, shoot a gun, race a car…I literally needed that. You know you pick any of these girls who don’t have a depth of experience, you’re not going to get that coolness, that edge, you’re not going to get that rawness like one of the guys … She’s a beautiful woman! I am not going to direct her ‘to be’ a beautiful woman, she has to have those inherent qualities; I’m just going to help her get to the emotional truth of this character. I’m going to bring out what’s already in her. I think that’s where the casting process is very analogous to the directing process. You’re just being as honest as you can about what they do and don’t have. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Perhaps similar to collaborating with Hilary Swank and Chloe Sevigny in Boys Don’t Cry, was there was a sense of discovery you honed in on, working with actors like Channing Tatum and Joseph Gordon-Levitt whose careers are mid-blossom?
Kimberly Peirce: Yeah, that’s a good question. From the beginning, because I had been interviewing real soldiers and my brother had fought, I said, “First of all, I don’t want to cast this [movie] way too old.” There are fantastic actors in their 30s, but that wouldn’t have been appropriate for people signing up for this war. It’s really hard to “age actors down.” In general, if you’re going to do realism it’s very hard to go much lower in terms of age. We were out of the “huge movie star” zone because they don’t exist under 30, which is really interesting if you look at the landscape. It really just meant that I could audition; and I got to audition everybody. Any of these actors could’ve forced me to cast them without an audition because they were good enough; but they did audition. That’s a great sign to me when actors audition. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Out of curiosity, have any of the presidential candidates along the trail embraced this topic along their campaign trail?
Kim Peirce: It’s interesting because in April, Hillary (Clinton) came out with a stop-loss policy saying, “We need to stop this.” And then Barack (Obama) came out against the stop-loss policy. And (John) McCain’s always been against it. I mean, it’s interesting. I think at that point Hillary needed something to give her something strong–more power–and stop-loss is such a wrong that it can’t be argued otherwise. Even all the conservatives are saying it’s wrong…you can’t recycle people and put them in indentured servitude.
HW: Does Barack Obama continue to be vocal supporter, now that he’s a nominee?
Kim Peirce: Yeah, Senator Obama has asked supporters on his website, to see Stop-Loss and to sign petitions to end the policy. Now, he’s made ending the Stop-Loss policy a central part of his plan–get this–to strengthen the military, arguing that Stop-Loss is actually a recruiting impediment that is de-incentivizing citizens from enlisting…really smart![PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Yes, the layers are deep. I know from Army recruiters visiting my nephew’s eighth grade class in Flatbush Brooklyn, they’re targeting certain vulnerable, marginalized groups to fight.
Kim Peirce: In terms of race stuff, it’s really fascinating, I mean who is fighting this war right now? It’s either of people [of all races] who have a long history of being in the military, or people of color–or people who don’t have access to jobs in a lot of ways. People are signing up because there is a gulf between the rich and the poor. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: When you showed homecoming parade to welcome home the soldiers and you showed the recruiters trying to get new converts across color-lines. I was really appreciative in your choice to focus on how this affects people of particular economic strata and of color?
Kim Peirce: It’s really important to me because I wanted to make the emblematic story of the generation. Its like, “Okay, where would they [these troops] come from? Well, they’d come from Texas because they have the most base towns.” I debated whether it was going to be a case of color or if it was more emblematic of these white boys who have a history of signing up. Then there’s Rico (Victor Rasuk)…and there’s “Eyeball” (Rob Brown) who has the video camera and he’s the one documenting. That came about because all these African-American guys were making these beautiful raps that were coming out of Iraq that I was listening to. We actually have the Fourth Twenty Fifth which was a real unit that makes the song in the movie…
HW: That rap, I know! That was a great, great movie moment, ohmygawd…
KP: Those are real soldiers who wrote and recorded that song. The Fourth Twenty Fifth was their unit and that’s their rap song that we have over the video montage. That was important to me and that’s why “Eyeball” had the camera because he was making meaning. Then we have Victor who plays Rico Rodriguez…I mean, my little brother is Puerto Rican and he fought…the thing was, we read about these Green Card marines who were these kids without a citizenship who hoped to get higher on the roster of citizenship … You know as a filmmaker that it’s challenging to bring these issues up but you don’t want the movie to be a message movie you want it to be a story. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Back in our film school days, we were both interested in making movies without dialogue. What I really loved in Stop-Loss is how expressive Ryan’s face is on many occasions without dialogue…and you just spend the time with him, quietly. Is that something you were looking for in him?
Kimberly Peirce: Yeah–that’s something you’re interested in; and something I’m interested in. We know that you need scenes to play without dialogue because that’s basically what the audience is–they’re emoting off of that. We would actually do takes when there was dialogue in the scene, and then I would have them do the take without the dialogue. He [Ryan] would then be forced to emote. Right? So, it would be like kinda crazy, but he would have to act out the emotion of that scene without the dialogue and the other actor had the dialogue and it would really force it into an extreme. It made him more pliable, more expressive, more dramatic–it’s actually a real good tool that I use whenever I need to. You know? [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: To me that ‘no dialogue’ work helped make this one of his most expressive roles–and it really showed.
Kimberly Peirce: On occasion I think he was hungry to take himself over the edge and I think he’s just matured. He was this beautiful…he was just so beyond pretty and gorgeous…I think what’s happened is that he’s become a man in the last couple of years. I think he’s really mastering his craft which I think is really wonderful to work with. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: I think his movie on a large scale level investigates the question: where is rage being placed for these returning soldiers arriving from Iraq? Was it alarming to know that there was nothing being done to help these kids adjust?
Kim Peirce: Absolutely. Let’s say [clarify] our soldiers are not committing criminal acts, but here I am the sister of a brother [sent to war]. They [the administration] are taking the person…who I brought home from the hospital when he was born–and they are teaching him to kill. They are training him the most sophisticated means of killing we’ve ever experienced in human history. They are forever changed, these soldiers. They go over there and this is what they are taught to do; and many of them will tell you they have killed innocent people–and are haunted about it.[PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Clearly, the violence of the war walks with them.
Kimberly Peirce: They will tell you that PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder] is real. That they are adrenalized. That they miss it. That they are much more quick to anger. And they don’t know what to do with it. No matter what, that war comes home [too] and the individuals are not being taught to reassimilate … [Dejectedly] Great! So now we have all these people who have killed and it’s really changed something inside them. So, yeah, I think we have to deal with all the rage. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Talk about how Joseph Gordon-Levitt‘s character Tommy speaks to a growing soldier problem.
Kimberly Peirce: He starts drinking…but a good soldier can’t be drinking. So, he comes back and he starts a fight and that pisses off his wife [Jeanie] …he’s out of control and she moves away from him, but then that destroys the very thing that he ultimately wanted as an antidote to the war … We’ve interviewed a number of parents who said, “My son was not the same when he came home and he started drinking.” … I felt like we needed to represent this, that it’s the highest suicide rate of any war, it’s the highest rate of brain injury, and it’s not extreme to show that because I think unfortunately we’re going to see a hell of a lot more of it.[PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: What sort or range of reactions have you gotten from parents of soldiers responded?
Kim Peirce: Well it’s interesting because we were in Boulder, Colorado and they said, “We were scared to see it. We didn’t know what you were going to do but thank you for making it an emotional movie and thank you for making a movie that shows our point of view.” I said, “How are you dealing with your son being stopped loss?” The father said [imitating a stoic voice], “We’re dealing with it. We’re fine.” And the wife got really agitated and upset and said, “We are not fine. This is not okay.” Sooo, they certainly felt that it represented their point of view and it was a necessary catharsis. The mother [in the film] was a bit inspired by my own mother like, “I’m gonna get my keys and I’m goin to Mexico.” [Ironic laugh] That’s what my mother said too. You know what I mean?!
HW: [Laughing hard] Yeah, the whole audience at our screening was like, “Wahooooo!” [when Brandon’s mother’s revolt happens]. You would’ve loved it if you were there. The whole audience like flipped–and we all got a mass chill. It was like, “Yeah, go mama!!”
Kim Peirce: [Laughs along] That’s so funny. It’s a real mom’s response. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Speaking of female energy in the film, Abbie Cornish was so spot on–and held her own among the boys. Did you both relate to each other somehow, in the mist of this male energy?
Kim Peirce: The great thing about her and how I say she is one of the guys, is that I think Abbie really puts them at ease. I mean, she does rap, and she races cars and she just has “a way” that’s really in tune and she’s the kind of girl that guys like. So, in that way we shared that connection with the guys but it was also her being a beautiful woman and being separate. I probably most related to her because my brother was away fighting and I was the sister who was home.[PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: So, Abbie‘s Michele is sort of like your female character in Boys?
Kim Peirce: .Abbie would be the one who witnessed the guys in their most devastating moments and was the one who was sober and the anchor for them … Yeah, in some ways Lana (Chloe Sevigny) was the way of understanding Brandon Teena (Hilary Swank). In some ways Abbie was the way of understanding these soldiers. She was the civilian that the audience could most identify with. She knows what’s wrong with these guys. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: What did [Abbie and Ryan’s] voyage mean to you in the story?
Kim Peirce: It’s interesting that you are bringing it up because it was originally conceived as a ’70s road-movie and it was interesting because we had scenes and we wrote where they make a stop and go to the ocean and they get drunk. It was so interesting when we started making the movie…it didn’t fit … what really emerged is that these guys [the troops] needed him [Brandon] back home. If this was a story about a man who became a great warrior by staying true to his men, he can’t be off with the girl having fun, they can’t be escaping. The audience didn’t want to stay away from the boys at home for very long.
[PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Could you talk about going into Morocco as the proxy Iraq? And filming in Texas?
Kim Peirce: Yeah, we shot Texas for Texas. New York and LA…I’m way into location shooting because I think, particularly if it’s contemporary, I would say a quarter of your screenplay ends up getting enhanced because you’re living around the people who you are depicting. For me I’m always listening to their language and casting locals and changing scene to be at a BBQ a dancehall, whatever is adherent to the lifestyle. I wanted the same thing to the extent that I could get in an Islamic country. We could not shoot in Iraq … I fought long and hard and had the support of some very smart people on my producing team to really fight for Morocco–one, because it was an Islamic country and two, because…it feels the most like Iraq in terms of the buildings and in terms of the people … It being an Islamic country was important because it put the boys in another culture and it made them sensitive and it made them aware of the difference. [PAGEBREAK]
Hollywood.com: Kim, writing and directing are so organic to who you are as a person–and as an artist–can you talk about the aspects of your personality that lends to that? And, have you felt a huge growth between Boys Don’t Cry and Stop-Loss?
KP: It’s interesting…and again, we went to school together…and you’re also a part-performer…so, part of the writing and directing comes out of a need for storytelling. It’s certainly ingrained in my family; I’m Italian, I’m Jewish, what do you do? You talk. You tell stories. I think there always was a lot of storytelling and the need to be a good storyteller. And to make sense of life through stories…that’s really how I understand history…even how I understand emotion. The performer part of me has blossomed more so lately … I also think [filmmaking] for me is being concerned about my family and my country, it’s certainly is about my gender and my sexual identity and my community–and more than anything it was about love. I’m a big romantic and I wanted to write a love story.
HW: And yesss, storytelling is a gift…
KP: We were lucky that you and I went to a really good grad school [Columbia Film] and I think art is a combination of the personal experience and the craft because I think you have a lot of people who have amazing stories–but to get a good story out you have to have craft. I love emotion, and I love putting emotion on screen, and it’s so great when people come back to me and say, “I felt this way when I watched that scene.” … Almost what our job is, is to understand emotion, capture emotion and deliver emotion and make them laugh and make them cry. I don’t know how you feel, but mahhn, when I’m sitting in that theater and the audience is having an emotional reaction you’re like, “Oh yeah, that’s what it’s all about.”
*Editor’s note: Kim asks that you all visit their SOUNDOFF website (www.stoplossmovie.com/soundoff).
